Discussion:
[j-nsp] Juniper MPC2E-3D-NG-R-B vs MPC2E-3D-R-B
Kevin Wormington
2018-10-19 17:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi list,

Can anyone tell me the differences in scaling or features of the MPC2E-3D-NG-R-B vs MPC2E-3D-R-B. I know the NG requires an SBCE2.

Thanks,

Kevin
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Rolf Hanßen
2018-10-19 19:32:57 UTC
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Hello,

as far as I see the feature difference is HQoS:
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/reference/general/mpc-mx-series-mpc2e-features.html

regards
Rolf
Post by Kevin Wormington
Hi list,
Can anyone tell me the differences in scaling or features of the
MPC2E-3D-NG-R-B vs MPC2E-3D-R-B. I know the NG requires an SBCE2.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Saku Ytti
2018-10-20 08:35:53 UTC
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Hey Rolf,

No that's not it, that's difference between Q and non Q card. All
three generations had HQoS support:

1) MPC (Trio 1.0)
2) MPCE
3) MPCE--NG

I'm not sure about difference, MPCE I believe got better oscillator
for timing and I think more linecard cpu dram for higher subscriber
scale. I don't know what NG got.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were also respins with newer Trio, as
cost reduction (E==1.5? NG==2.0?).

I'd also love to have definitive answer of changelog between each generation.
Post by Rolf Hanßen
Hello,
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/reference/general/mpc-mx-series-mpc2e-features.html
regards
Rolf
Post by Kevin Wormington
Hi list,
Can anyone tell me the differences in scaling or features of the
MPC2E-3D-NG-R-B vs MPC2E-3D-R-B. I know the NG requires an SBCE2.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Pavel Lunin
2018-10-20 09:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

If memory serves, MPC2-NG is much like MPC3-NG: one MPC5-like PFE inside. A
good question is what is the difference between the MPC2-NG and MPC3-NG...
I'll let the astute readers figure it out on their own.

Old MPC2 non-NG is the "first generation Trio"-based card: two PFE, one per
MIC. There is no much sens in buying it today, it's a 10-years old thing.

E vs. non-E - Saku is (as always) right, the non-E was the very very first
generation of MPC cards, which had a kind of broken oscillator (only
matters for SyncE applications). So we normally omit the E in every day
language today, as all MPC cards are E since many many years.

And yeah, "HQoS" (aka -Q/EQ version of cards) has nothing to do with the
NG/non-NG story. Most cards have a -Q version to support "HQoS". Shortly
speaking, it's for those folks who don't know what to do with their
employer's money.

--
Pavel
Post by Saku Ytti
Hey Rolf,
No that's not it, that's difference between Q and non Q card. All
1) MPC (Trio 1.0)
2) MPCE
3) MPCE--NG
I'm not sure about difference, MPCE I believe got better oscillator
for timing and I think more linecard cpu dram for higher subscriber
scale. I don't know what NG got.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were also respins with newer Trio, as
cost reduction (E==1.5? NG==2.0?).
I'd also love to have definitive answer of changelog between each generation.
Post by Rolf Hanßen
Hello,
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/reference/general/mpc-mx-series-mpc2e-features.html
Post by Rolf Hanßen
regards
Rolf
Post by Kevin Wormington
Hi list,
Can anyone tell me the differences in scaling or features of the
MPC2E-3D-NG-R-B vs MPC2E-3D-R-B. I know the NG requires an SBCE2.
Thanks,
Kevin
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--
++ytti
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Andrey Kostin
2018-11-02 16:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Pavel,

HQoS is needed for subscriber aggregation, exactly for the case that is
discussed in another thread "Juniper buffer float".
NG cards without HQoS can be configured for "flexible mode" which is
HQoS limited to 32k queues. It's suitable for example if you have some
number of vlans and want to do per-vlan shaping and queueing. For
example, 32k queues with 4 queue per interface will allow to serve 8000
subinterfaces. On MPC2E-NG it means that you can do per-vlan QoS on 8
10G ports with 1000 vlans on each port - not bad in compare with old
non-NG non-Q cards that can do queueing only on physical interfaces. It
will work for small-scale LNS, up to 8k subscribers, but watch out to
not exceed it ;)
Full-scale NG HQoS card allows 512k queues that allows (in theory) to
terminate 64k subscribers with 8 queues per interface.

Kind regards,
Andrey
Post by Pavel Lunin
Hi,
If memory serves, MPC2-NG is much like MPC3-NG: one MPC5-like PFE inside. A
good question is what is the difference between the MPC2-NG and MPC3-NG...
I'll let the astute readers figure it out on their own.
Old MPC2 non-NG is the "first generation Trio"-based card: two PFE, one per
MIC. There is no much sens in buying it today, it's a 10-years old thing.
E vs. non-E - Saku is (as always) right, the non-E was the very very first
generation of MPC cards, which had a kind of broken oscillator (only
matters for SyncE applications). So we normally omit the E in every day
language today, as all MPC cards are E since many many years.
And yeah, "HQoS" (aka -Q/EQ version of cards) has nothing to do with the
NG/non-NG story. Most cards have a -Q version to support "HQoS". Shortly
speaking, it's for those folks who don't know what to do with their
employer's money.
--
Pavel
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Pavel Lunin
2018-11-04 12:37:43 UTC
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Post by Andrey Kostin
HQoS is needed for subscriber aggregation, exactly for the case that is
discussed in another thread "Juniper buffer float".
This is how Juniper and other vendors present it. But it's very
questionable if you really need a dedicated set of queues per subscriber
interface.

Even with triple-play (which is dying in some countries and has never
really born in others) you can cope with policers instead of shapers on the
DSI level and a physical interface queues to control the ratio between
Internet/Voice/TV/etc. It just won't be that much of copy-pasting of the
"official" vendor's guides, but it's definitely doable if all subscribers
on a given physical interface share a fixed set of predefined services.

For pure Internet, of course you can put customer packets in a buffer, than
wait a bit, than drop it with the fancy WRED algorithm, but simply dropping
with a policer is a much cheaper way to slow down the customer's TCP (or
QUIC or torrent or whatever).

The case where per unit queueing is really inevitable is rather business
VPN with multiple traffic classes per customer and different commitment
ratios for different customers, sharing the same physical port. Or
sometimes you might want to share the same port for B2B and B2C
subscribers. But... It really depends if your marketing knows how to get
money out of this. Honestly speaking, I doubt that they do, but traditional
business telco giants must have such services in their portfolios because
they just must. B2B people love to talk about QoS, you know. You can't just
tell your customer "we drop your packets" if you wear a suit with a tie.

On the other hand, it's also a matter of price of those cards. With
sufficient volume, the difference between -Q and non-Q might probably be
negligible. And the fact that it's "officially" documented and supported by
JTAC might also change something.

However, in my experience, people tend to buy Q-cards rather because of
FUD, because someone has said them to do so, or because it's public money
and nobody cares.

But no matter how much it costs in CAPEX, HQoS is still complex as hell,
even if you have money to pay those cards. So only use it if you really
know what you are doing, otherwise it will make more harm than good (I have
examples, if you wish).
Mark Tinka
2018-11-05 07:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pavel Lunin
But no matter how much it costs in CAPEX, HQoS is still complex as hell,
even if you have money to pay those cards. So only use it if you really
know what you are doing, otherwise it will make more harm than good (I have
examples, if you wish).
Totally agree with this last bit.

I think all our Juniper line cards support H-QoS. But to be honest, we
don't even smell that surface, never mind scratch it.

Mark.
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Roger Wiklund
2018-10-20 09:40:37 UTC
Permalink
High level diff:

MPC2E
***@40G each
No IR license mode (all features but 32VRF limit per MPC)
Minimum Junos 11.2R4

MPC2E-NG
***@80G
IR license mode available
Minimum Junos 14.1R4
Requires SCBE or SCBE2

More details here about specific features: (dynamic power, flexible
queueing, hqos, l2tp etc)
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/reference/general/mpc-mx-series-mpc2e-features.html

/Roger
Post by Saku Ytti
Hey Rolf,
No that's not it, that's difference between Q and non Q card. All
1) MPC (Trio 1.0)
2) MPCE
3) MPCE--NG
I'm not sure about difference, MPCE I believe got better oscillator
for timing and I think more linecard cpu dram for higher subscriber
scale. I don't know what NG got.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were also respins with newer Trio, as
cost reduction (E==1.5? NG==2.0?).
I'd also love to have definitive answer of changelog between each generation.
Post by Rolf Hanßen
Hello,
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/reference/general/mpc-mx-series-mpc2e-features.html
Post by Rolf Hanßen
regards
Rolf
Post by Kevin Wormington
Hi list,
Can anyone tell me the differences in scaling or features of the
MPC2E-3D-NG-R-B vs MPC2E-3D-R-B. I know the NG requires an SBCE2.
Thanks,
Kevin
_______________________________________________
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a***@netconsultings.com
2018-10-21 11:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Kevin Wormington
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 6:29 PM
Hi list,
Can anyone tell me the differences in scaling or features of the MPC2E-3D-
NG-R-B vs MPC2E-3D-R-B. I know the NG requires an SBCE2.
Thanks,
Without going into too much detail (again),

If all your traffic is single class (like internet) then Trio gen 1 and gen
1.5 (old numbering scheme) are ok.

If however you have traffic of different priorities then you have two
options,
1) either you can make sure you will under no circumstances overload the
MPC2E card -which is kind of hard without custom script checking for PFE
utilization. (rule of thumb imix type of traffic is ok @20Gbps per PFE with
HQOS -i.e. QX chip enabled)
2) or you'll get Trio gen 2, which is ok and since 17.2, if I remember
correctly, can be completely corrected with tuneable pre-classifier feature.
(but this is the thing you need to tune in asr9k as well in order to get QOS
working correctly).

So definitely, if you have the budget you want to stay with MPC2E-3D-NG or
MPC3E-3D-NG.
Also these cards have the good old and familiar 1xLU-1xMQ-1xQX architecture
no weird mutations of it.

adam

netconsultings.com
::carrier-class solutions for the telecommunications industry::

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